From Doctor Who VR To Teen Calm

We talk with Zilla Watson and Katie, the co-founders of Phase Space, about building a virtual reality tool that helps anxious teenagers feel calmer in minutes and why schools became the real place for impact. We share the messy, practical decisions behind evidence, funding, founder fit, and choosing a growth path that matches both ambition and real life. 
• meeting through a competitive BBC VR commission and building trust through delivery 
• founding Phase Space during Covid and shifting from “projects” to a real product 
• using an Innovate UK research grant to build an evidence base and test safely 
• learning that grant cash flow and paid-in-arrears timelines change fundraising needs 
• finding product-market fit in schools through systematic pilots and clear use cases 
• rolling out across Sutton secondary schools with NHS and university partners 
• dividing founder strengths while protecting sustainability and avoiding burnout 
• redefining success beyond headline VC rounds and “investability” narratives 
• using AI tools to speed up customer research and positioning work 
• choosing between revenue-led growth and investment-led hypergrowth 
• handling conflicting advice by asking better questions and filtering by timing 

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet Phase Space

Stewart Noakes 0:01

Okay, so here we are, series five of Founder Friday. I think this is episode six, which is crazy to me. Already this we're not even in summer properly, and we're episode six. Welcome you two. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Would you be kind enough just to introduce yourselves and let everybody know what you're working on? Maybe Zilla first and then Katie.

Zillah Watson 0:20

Oh, I'm Zilla Watson and I'm co-founder of Phase Space. And we've created some brilliant virtual reality that in minutes can calm anxious and overwhelmed teenagers. And we're selling it into schools.

Katie Grayson 0:35

And I'm Katie, and I co-founded Phase Space with Zilla. Yes, uh yeah, more on the operational side as Zilla's CEO.

Stewart Noakes 0:45

How

How A BBC VR Project United Them

Stewart Noakes 0:46

did you two meet to start all this journey off together?

Zillah Watson 0:49

Well, it's it's a great story. I was working at the BBC, I was running a virtual reality studio, and um we wanted to commission a Doctor Who VR and Katie won a very competitive um tendering pitch process to um make the this interactive Doctor Who adventure. And we worked together really, really well, and we um discovered we both had a great um patience for working around barriers in big organizations when things came up that stopped and kept our eye on the bigger picture and what we were trying to achieve. And now we're doing that at large with um a startup.

Stewart Noakes 1:27

How many years ago was that, Katie?

Zillah Watson 1:30

2018, I think.

Katie Grayson 1:32

Yeah.

Stewart Noakes 1:33

My goodness, only eight years ago. I mean, interesting.

Zillah Watson 1:36

Yeah, we didn't I mean we didn't work together straight away beyond that, but um, I think it's interesting that our um relationship started as a one of professional respect. Um, and that's interesting as a sort of founding really and and probably quite unusual in terms of founders, isn't it? That we've worked really well on successfully on a project that really delivered.

Katie Grayson 1:58

I have yeah, and a lot of a lot of clients and commissioners uh over the years, and I can't think of any others I'd start a business with. So I think it's really unusual.

Stewart Noakes 2:09

So was it was it rapport at first sight, or did it take a while to kind of uh bring you two together?

Zillah Watson 2:15

We just built it through trust through working on a project.

Katie Grayson 2:19

Yeah, on a really and it was I mean it's so funny because you look back, and at the time that was a very challenging project with a lot of moving parts, and now now you know, given given what we're going through together now, it just feels like that was a breeze. I don't know what the problem was, but it was um it was definitely it was it was sort of working in tandem, a bit of divide and conquer in terms of winning people over, convincing people this was the right way to go, um, and getting things done because quite often that's what holds projects up and wastes money. So we just you know kept going.

Zillah Watson 2:52

Because by background, really, both of us are producers, and what's great about producers, that's they're bringing they're good at bringing together very complex teams with different skill sets and delivering stuff. That's what good producers do, whether it's a film or a big event, and that's really both that that's our background, isn't it, Katie? Both of us in different ways for different things.

Stewart Noakes 3:12

So whose

The Covid Walk That Sparked It

Stewart Noakes 3:13

kitchen table was it at that you had that first conversation that said, I think we could do this thing for schools. Where was it?

Katie Grayson 3:20

It wasn't in a table, it was on the it was on Hampstead Heath, wasn't it, with your dog? Because it was COVID. It was COVID, so we were walking and despairing of the stay of the UK immersive industry and wondered what we could do. And um, yeah, Face Space started out as an idea just to set up something between us to take advantage of any funding or projects that came along. Um, and I said the only thing I remember about that conversation is I said, Oh, I definitely don't want to make a product. I'm not in, I'm don't want to, you know, don't want to be the person to do an after product. And yeah, uh, when was that? It was probably 2020. So yeah, six years later, here we are.

Zillah Watson 3:57

Yes, and I'd had various conversations with people who'd founded startups and thought there's no way I'd want to do that because I'd had a sort of I had a major life-changing moment leaving the BBC after 20 years, but we we've ended up really um really enjoying it. But I I think part of that thing was us sort of deciding bravely, and this is perhaps one of the sort of women the the thing about women entrepreneurs here that both of us had always worked for other people before, and that maybe it was charming to stop moaning about our bosses and actually take some action ourselves and make something happen. Yeah, that we there was a moment where we both thought actually we should COVID had definitely, I think, brought that into focus for a lot of people.

Katie Grayson 4:40

That relationship of, you know, I'm absolutely bending myself in half between you know, family and work and everything else to make someone else some money. And uh maybe we should maybe we should not, you know, maybe we should make ourselves ourselves money. Yeah.

Innovate UK Grant And Clinical Evidence

Stewart Noakes 4:58

So from hamster teeth to here, how where have you taken it?

Zillah Watson 5:03

Well, I think the biggest thing was getting, I mean, the thing that really kicked it off from being just a sort of little side hustle, this isn't this interesting, was getting a decent research grant from Innovate UK. So we're very grateful for that. And that was with City St. George's um university.

Stewart Noakes 5:17

Um and that and get, are they? There's a big application process for that sort of stuff. How did you how did you navigate that?

Zillah Watson 5:24

Well, we we both, you know, we've both done a few grant applications before. So we we we weren't new to that, but again, for doing it for scratch from us um was was a new thing. Um, and I'd you know, I'd at the BBC I'd run research partnerships with the university. So again, we've we had some skill in this area, but doing it for yourselves is totally different and requires a different level of confidence. And there was one point early on when I had to check myself and sort of think, why am I finding this harder? Because I was used to, you know, um, you know, when I was certainly one of journalists, getting persuading people to get up at four o'clock in the morning to go filming and do completely unreasonable things, but I did it on behalf of um the BBC and I suddenly thought, no, I can do it. And that's I mean, that's sort of what I found actually, that I can just do it. Um but I'd always had this sort of blanket or cloak of doing it for an organization before that had had helped me. But yeah, that's so the the research grant really helped because I mean we wanted to do this properly. We're we're dealing with anxious teenagers, we wanted something that was um had a really strong evidence base and that was created to be safe and really responsibly, and and and really doing that without a grant would be very, very hard, I think. Um uh because you you have to we've gone through a really rigorous design and testing process, and it has been sort of formally trialled in a randomized control trial with students. That would have been very, very hard without significant capital at the start. And off the back of that grant, we also raised um money from SFC capital. And again, um we we were incredibly grateful for their support at that that early stage, but that it's critical for cash flowing those grants, which is what we hadn't thought about, um, because innovate pays in arrears. So those two together is what got us started and and and gave us sort of rocket fuel to sort of push forward that idea.

Stewart Noakes 7:18

Amazing,

Why Schools Became The Beachhead

Stewart Noakes 7:19

amazing. And I know you initially thought university students would be where this would have the most traction. How is that journey going now?

Zillah Watson 7:27

Where how what interesting because one of the things that inspired it is I was teaching at UCL and I was sort of over, you know, astonished by how many just the the level of anxiety and people not handing work in because of anxiety. And we thought with all the interviews we did with university students, there was a real need for things that would help um them, and and um and then real need for earlier interventions rather than waiting until there's a crisis. But but actually we found that um it's schools where there is such a strong duty of care to support students um through their school years, and that again, um I mean it was happening pre-COVID, but it's it's it's sort of risen and risen, you know, astonishing levels of um uh of anxiety, um, students leaving classes, overwhelmed and things. And that's where it's it's proven to be really, really helpful. Um so we're working with a number of schools. We are our sort of biggest moment recently was launching in all 15 secondary schools in the London Borough of Sutton with the um NHS Mental Health Trust, Southwest London and St. George's, um, their CAMS school well-being service, and that has enabled us to um you know test out at scale. We'd work with some brilliant schools before that to get to that point. Um, but it's it's um, I mean, constantly I'm I'm shocked and horrified by the stories I hear when I go into schools, and it is incredibly um humbling to be doing something that that that's able to help and and and has very quick results for some of the students that they're dealing with.

Katie Grayson 8:59

Yeah, I think there was um there was definitely a moment where we were slightly hedging who this was for. Um, I think just you know, in terms of sort of advice for the founders, and we did we just got some great feedback um around the fact that we, you know, it's very hard for uh an investor to kind of look at for potential markets, you sort of have to have your your beach head and you have to go with that. And it and it just so happened that that feedback tallied with with just this incredible pull from schools and realizing what a need there was there. That again, yeah, we weren't seeing in workplaces, we definitely weren't seeing in universities. Um, and it just helped us um really hone down like the pain point, the use case, all the things that you you need to kind of start building a market and an offer.

Zillah Watson 9:46

But again, I think what we've learned is all this does have to be systematically tested. I mean, a few years ago, everybody said to us, Oh, your your market will be workplaces, they'll be crying out for this. Um, they've got real duty of care, they're really worried about their Gen Z people. And we tested it and we did some great pilots, um, but we realized actually their budgets for well-being were relatively small and it wasn't really going to work, um, and moved on. And I think that's that that approach, that I mean, that's what we have learned is is a sort of we both come from these um creative RD backgrounds where you you you design processes where you test stuff, and if it works, you take it forward, and if it doesn't, you kill it fast. And we've sort of, I mean, that's that's been our our the way we've applied that to entrepreneurship, and that's um you know a very good way. We also went on a really good um accelerator for ed tech, and Katie can talk about that, but again, they were very much applying that sort of process, weren't they, of creating little experiments.

Katie Grayson 10:46

Yes, yeah, that was, and and I think you know, especially in if you're targeting schools, you need you need to know that this is a problem that exists in all schools. So it was kind of like it was it was a very they had a very systematic process that allowed you to sort of test and build that case and and through that you understand people's language, how they describe the problem, what you can offer them in response, and and and start you know um really embedding yourself in that market, which I I think is is what we've spent the past couple of years doing.

Stewart Noakes 11:19

Amazing, amazing. Now,

Founder Fit Trust And Sustainable Work

Stewart Noakes 11:21

I've obviously met you guys a few times and uh and seen you pitch and present and stuff. Um and you're a really interesting and enjoyable pair of people to be around. What what is uh what makes you good founders and what are you each good at that the other one maybe isn't good at? But it kind of fits you together like the jigsaw pieces you are.

Zillah Watson 11:43

Well, some to some extent we felt this, we've actually very cleverly fitted this around our lifestyles as well. Because my kids are older, and so I was ready for a bit of a bit more sort of travel and adventure and getting out and going and do things, um, having um you know, had a had a career but with three kids as well, who I needed to get back to. Katie's got a younger daughter, and so we've we've made we've made this work both around our skill sets, but also around uh around our lives and what we need from that. Because um early on I got advice from a friend who said, if you can't make this, if you don't bother with this if you can't make it work for you in the way you want. Um, because you you do again when you're you're creating a startup, get lots of advice from other people who tell you you should be doing it like this, you should be doing it like that. And I think I think we took that to heart, both in the way we wanted to run the business, even if later that has to change, but that that we had to make it work for us because the the you know, we we've at times we've been under significant stress, we've worked extremely hard, um, but but but fundamentally we have made it work around what we're able and prepared um to do.

Katie Grayson 12:51

And yeah, and we are you know, we do come to look back to the fact that this is, you know, it's certainly uh although we're more kind of education and well-being focused now, this did start off as a sort of mental health startup, and and causing burnout for anyone as part of that is not a good look. Um we cannot, we can't, we can't drive no, we can't drive people into the ground. Um, and and I think we we won't say, you know, if you've ever you know delivered big productions, you know there's a time to to knuckle down and work all hours and we'll do it. But it's you know, we understand what's sustainable and what's not. Um yeah. I think what we have, I mean, there's the certain amount of I think just bloody mindedness that we both have. And I think that's probably as good a reason for succeeding as anything, isn't it? We're both we're both uh we're both quite good at um at deciding something has to happen and and making sure it does.

Zillah Watson 13:46

Yeah, and there's no way, there's absolutely no way I could have done it on my own. And I don't know how founders do in terms of the pressures they're under, and we've been able to support each other at different times through different things, um, which is is is really helpful. Um, and you know, it's it's sort of evolved, isn't it? But we can swap um at different times. And uh Katie's a brilliant pitcher. Um uh uh she pitched me and then she managed to double the budget virtually, um having got it. So that's how good she is.

Katie Grayson 14:13

That was the first that was the beginning of our relationship.

Zillah Watson 14:15

She does know I can I can talk people around when they need to be. But I think it's it's trust, actually. It's trust and tolerance and trust, and um, and you know that that you know, we check things with each other. Um and I still do, even when I'm pretty sure what Katie will think, I'll still check it. Um because uh, you know, I don't I you know if if something's important, it's got to be, it's got to be right. Um and then there are things we get on and and and just get on with and and and get done. Um but I've I've ended up doing a little bit more of the going out into schools and doing stuff, and that's quite funny because my very first job um was was um running um a schools mock trial competition and going into lots of schools when I um decided not to be a lawyer very early on on in my career. So I'm back to doing that, but I've always enjoyed it.

Stewart Noakes 15:06

Oh, you'd have been a great barrister, Zilla.

Zillah Watson 15:11

That's what my mum that's what my mum said.

Stewart Noakes 15:16

I mean, in keeping with that thought, like well, what's the communication style that works for you too? How does how do you talk things through or make decisions that maybe you you find difficult?

Katie Grayson 15:26

We I mean we do we do think by talking, don't we? I think we both do a lot of it is just like actually if we sit down and and and and sort of drill down a bit, we'll get to something. Um I do appreciate the fact that I think I've said this before, maybe on this podcast, Zilla knows everyone. So actually, if there is if there is something we need help with, she'd like there is lit, there is someone she thinks can help a sort of you know, a WhatsApp away. And I like that as well. I like that with we we are incredibly open about people we will, you know, other people's advice and who can help, um, you know, some some better than others, but it's always interesting, isn't it?

Zillah Watson 16:06

Yeah, I mean I think with the the the tough times, there's been a few times when we had really difficult decisions to make, and we've just we've just sat down and and chatted, right? What should we do? Because they were sort of around fundraising, or or should we accept a particular offer or something that might come with um quite significant compromise? And we've we've just very rationally we've made we've we've made documents pros and cons and thought it through together. Um, but I think our confidence has grown on that. I mean, earlier on, you know, when you're presented with offers, you you sort of think, are we are you know are we are we being foolish turning this down? But I think I think we're getting we got much better at turning stuff down, didn't we, as well, Katie, in saying no to things that weren't going to put us forward. And we do that much faster now.

Stewart Noakes 16:53

Okay, fantastic. Well, I did promise you the opportunity to ask me some any questions you like. And then just before we we pivot into that, uh quick sense check. Do you guys have anybody in your family backgrounds and your peer groups that was entrepreneurial before you started this? And did you study anything to do with entrepreneurship before you got into all this?

Zillah Watson 17:13

I was um I did some business journalism for a while and did lots of programs on on entrepreneurs, actually. And I really loved I loved it and thought I knew a thing or two about it and how how wrong I was, because it's only through doing it yourself that you really learn um this. That I don't think there was any preparation from it. But I mean I did always find entrepreneurs very interesting. I don't have any entrepreneurs, I don't think, in my not my family. Um, not really, no.

Stewart Noakes 17:41

What about you, Katie?

Katie Grayson 17:43

No, not I mean, yeah, no, I don't think any anyone in my certainly not in my direct family. I'm trying to think if it's anyone extended, but no, it wasn't wasn't in my, you know, didn't know any growing up. Um I guess the nearest my experiences, and I think this this is what sort of comes, you know, we will always if we're stuck with something, we do sort of default to to producer mode. Um is in production because you know, quite often those those projects would involve you, you know, pitching, pitching development, raising finance, which is incredibly hard and complicated, um, you know, running budgets, doing a lot of of legal legwork um in terms of the contracting around co-production agreements and things. So I had, you know, I'd I'd operated at that level. The great thing about a film though is that you finish it. It's all wrapped up, whereas a startup just just yeah, stretches off into the future.

Stewart Noakes 18:39

It's more of one of those puppy moments, right? It's for life, not just for Christmas kind of thing.

Katie Grayson 18:42

Exactly, yeah, it is. But yeah, but so a lot. I I had, you know, I can work my way around a spreadsheet as a level of test, but but no, nothing, nothing in my family at all.

Redefining Success Beyond Big Fundraising

Stewart Noakes 18:53

Amazing, very courageous, both of you, to sort of jump into this moment. Do you do you feel courageous?

Zillah Watson 19:02

Um I I it's fairly satisfying where we've got to now. There was there've been moments where you sort of think, are we mad to do this? But again, we've had great advisors who we've said, are we mad to do this? And they said, No, you really shouldn't give up. Now that's easy for them to say because they've um jobs where they're paid and everything else. But we we we we really would we really would both have killed it at various points if if people had started saying to us, you know what, I don't I don't think this would work. We weren't so but we could see the results, that was the thing. We'd got the research, we'd we'd we were working, the way in which we were working, which was constantly testing things, meant that we had enough evidence of impact. Um but I think possibly what we had to do was calibrate what what that impact should be. Um, because if you were judging us on terms of did we bring in um millions of VC funding within three years, um we we would not we would not be, we have brought in investment, but it is that that sort of thing. You get into this, uh you get you can get a little bit pushed down that route through sort of investability um uh focused um innovate UK support and things like that. And I think what we have learned is um success in a business is is it has to be judged in in in um wider ways. And I again I I think you're really good at getting that across, Stuart, that um you can't see success as having brought in um five million pounds um pre-seed within uh 18 months with an idea on a piece of paper. Um or it would be a very sad world if that was the only measure of success, and there wouldn't be very many impact focused businesses.

Stewart Noakes 20:50

I've seen the evidence in front of my very eyes about the the power of what you get you do with uh with FaceFace. I think it's quite tremendous.

Zillah Watson 20:57

Yeah, but it is this, I think this is something I'd like to ask you about is how how you approach this sort of question about sort of what success is in terms of you know bringing in enough investment to be able to sort of carry forward a business um versus building impact in other ways, it's hard and um presumably it will vary quite a lot depending on the type of business.

Stewart Noakes 21:19

It certainly doesn't. I mean, one of the one of the really simple measures of success in this stuff is that you're still doing it.

Katie Grayson 21:25

Um you know, yeah, that's that's the bloody-mindedness that is we are still here.

Zillah Watson 21:32

Yeah, and we had to fail. Yeah, and we did have to step back at one point and and just remind ourselves that we were both enjoying this more than we'd enjoyed most things before. And we needed to focus on making sure we remembered what a privilege that was in itself, and um to to it not not to let, you know, in a sense, it's very easy when lots of things, when there are lots of worries um in the longer term about money and things, which there always will be with a business like. Hours at this stage. If you've stopped that from letting you enjoy the really fun and amazing bits, that wouldn't work. So I think it was a sort of reminder that you have to. I mean, I used to do, I mean, funnily enough, I used to would was really good at that in my previous career of saying, let's not worry about the money, we'll find it somehow. And I've had to sort of do that again. But it's a little on me now rather than the um BBC license mail.

Stewart Noakes 22:29

Absolutely. Yeah, there's different sofas to look behind in the sofa in the uh in the BBC, right?

Zillah Watson 22:35

Having said that, I think that makes you really make good decisions. I think it really, I look back at some of the um BBC commercialization projects I was involved with and think nobody ever had to take any, you know, you never had to worry about whether this was really going to work or not. And that that that led to some flawed decision making, I would say. Whereas actually thinking, right, would I would I bet my future on this um forces you to know whether you really believe in it or not? And um, and I can see why that's considered such an important thing for investors to believe in too, because why should why should they believe in your business if you don't?

Stewart Noakes 23:12

No, it is pretty tricky, right? Always think of it as a quotient of the belief of the founders rather than something that's beyond their belief. So ask me a question or two. What do you want to know? Is there anything I can try and feel today?

Startup Learning And AI For Strategy

Katie Grayson 23:25

Well, do you think um I think you know, when we were sort of um fresh, fresh new founders in 2023, um, with an innovate grant in our pocket and wondering where we could where we could raise some money from. Um I I think you know, from an education perspective, we we definitely did did not know. Um, I mean, you know, I think I've still got Zilla's copy of VC for Dummies, which was an absolute eye-opener when I read it and went, ah right, that's why no one's investing in it. Um, but I just think just the level of of education around around how this works. Um, do you is there is do you think that's improved over the last sort of, I guess how long we've been running, four years or whatever. Do you do you see that there's more awareness of it um with people you meet, or is everyone um you know still thinking it's sort of VC or nothing?

Stewart Noakes 24:21

I mean uh two I think it's 2011 when Eric Reese wrote the Lean Startup, and that kind of changed a lot of people's mindsets, and things have become a bit more consistent around that that model. Um, the design thinking things being thrown into all sorts of courses at degree levels and uh accelerators and so on, and that's kind of permeated along. But the the the strange thing about the startup land is it basically reinvents the wheel every sort of five to ten years, and I'm old enough and been involved in it enough to not to see that periodicity happen, basically because all the people change. So these new ones come in and say, Oh, I wish I knew how to do this. And you're kind of like you're looking at them, you go, Well, that's all been done like six times over, but they're reinventing it, and in some ways they reinvent it better, and in other ways they go back and they learn the same lessons that we were learned before. So it's interesting. There's there's a much bigger body of knowledge now, though, and it's so much more democratized that if I mean I can get advice from ChatGPT about entrepreneurship as somebody who's started 11 companies and been involved in it for 27 years, so and I can do that on a free license or a £20 a month one. That's an incredible access point that didn't exist before what four years ago.

Zillah Watson 25:34

Yeah.

Stewart Noakes 25:36

Even the program we're running over this summer, and and we did for the Uni Days, uh, folks, we were using tools which didn't exist to me within my my like a career lifetime, if you like, in doing this stuff. And being able to spin up an ICP off the back of a load of transcripts, and then take that definition of what an ideal customer is and iterate it multiple times in minutes and come out with a maturity that would have might have taken us a week and a lot of arguments as a founder group. Now it's just an afternoon's work, it's incredible, and then it's easy to do it again and again and again and again, uh, add an infinite item as you go through, which uh the detail. I think that's what was tuition, intuition, sorry.

Katie Grayson 26:16

Yeah, the rabbit holes you can go down in terms of market sizing and how you how you slice things up and how you might, you know, what you can add, how specific you can get on that with AI, is yeah, is is world away from where we started trying to assess a market size, isn't it, Zilla?

Stewart Noakes 26:34

Yeah, and also how consistent you can be. I mean, one of the things I did on the master's course probably two years ago or so was we were doing brand pyramid stuff, and I was doing it with non-native English speakers. So I basically sat with them and we worked in ChatGPT and we built a brand pyramid for something, and then I started adjusting it and saying, well, what if this is a non-English speaker? What if this is an English speaker with a literacy of sort of age of 25 or a master's education or a woman or a man? And we did all these different things, and it just did the narrative differently. And you could see their brains starting to view because English was either the second or their third language, they were now seeing the different ways to position their stuff against different market segments using a language that was unfamiliar to them and seeing how it was landing. Oh, and I couldn't have taught that. I literally couldn't have taught that without that tool. That's an incredible life experience to try and build up.

Zillah Watson 27:27

Yeah. Um, and

Winning Adoption For A New Category

Zillah Watson 27:29

and Stuart, what have you seen in terms of the I mean, we're our our we've got a uh quite a challenging product to sell because it's so new. I mean, that's why it's exciting as well, and we enjoy it, but it's not something people uh you have to explain it to people um and and show the benefits and things. And I think that's why it will take a little bit of time to take off because um schools will recommend to other schools when they see the results, but it's it's it's slow. What in terms of um when you when you're dealing with things on that sort of innovation front and things, what have you seen um that's that's really helped people make a big jump forward, big leap forward in terms of that?

Stewart Noakes 28:10

I mean, you you've got a real uh difficult challenge because you've got the slowest buyers in the world in terms of of schools and education, right? They have a periodistic to their buy, and it's basically like once, maybe twice a year, and it tees up inside what they're delivering. So there's a point in every year where they will look at innovation, and a lot of points where they absolutely won't, um, because of the regular the way that the school system works. Um, so that's tricky. You're also dealing with increasingly younger kids, so the barrier to entry is getting higher and higher in terms of how much they can trust you and trust the data and trust the exposure for the kids, etc. So that's tricky. Um, but you do two things really well, which is you um it's a bad phraseology when you think about the kids thing, but you're basically drug dealers that the moment people use your stuff, they get totally addicted to it. You know, the smiles that come out, the joy that's created, you just and you make sure you put it in people's hands and you get them to use it. And once somebody's used it, they'll tell three people I did, you know. I got my kids to use it, I recommended it to friends. I, you know, I wasn't making any money out of it, but I managed to uh sort of share that story incredibly quickly because it does something good. And the other thing you do very well is you you you parlay, as my old phraseology goes, you parlay the stories of people using the testimonials with new people because it brings that trust. Like, well, if the Sutton trust will use it, well then you could use it. If Stu will use it or Poppy will use it, whatever, then you know, other people will use it. And uh and I think you do that very well. Those testimonials are huge. And I guess behind that as well, you focused on evidence-based rather than just testimonial-based to say the science and this as well as true experience. Uh, but there's nothing better than putting good technology in people's hands because you don't have to convince them, they convince themselves through that experience.

Zillah Watson 30:04

One of the um people who gave us advice earlier on that we we talked to um had been responsible for introducing the BlackBerry to the UK. And he had to sort of he was talking about again in terms of of getting people um used to new things, he had to lend it to various CEOs because they just couldn't see why they would need it. And you can sort of once once you know we're all used to smartphones now and be able to check our emails and things. Um, but uh it was it it it is it is more complicated when you're introducing something very new like that with technology as well.

Stewart Noakes 30:37

Um interesting, great questions today. Is there anything else you want to ask before we move on to the final bit of uh session today?

Katie Grayson 30:47

Um have you seen critical questions, Switt in the chat? Yes, I'm just aware that I might my door might knock and it might be my daughter and I might have to go and answer this. Okay, yeah, now we can move on.

Stewart Noakes 31:05

Any any last questions?

Revenue Growth Versus VC Hypergrowth

Zillah Watson 31:09

I yeah, what what should we be worrying about now at this stage where we've just had some serious traction, got some good customers. What would you what what should be on our list of things like that you that you're in terms of thinking a step ahead of us that we should be really nailing down now?

Stewart Noakes 31:25

See, you're in that strange place where you're gonna decide if it's either revenue that grows you or investment that grows you. And then you're gonna work out how proportional or disproportionate you're gonna invest in things like marketing and trying to reach new folks.

Zillah Watson 31:42

Yeah.

Stewart Noakes 31:43

Um there are reasons to do either, and you've got to decide which one you're gonna do. But what you can't do is try and be something in between, doesn't tend to work. Um, when you go for investment, you need certain metrics which you're around to take up in order to justify that investment, and then you fulfill that promise that you're creating. And when you're building out of revenue, you need to be kind of the old phrase is cockroachy, you know, you proportionally invest out of the revenues you use create you create. And if you have a dip in revenues, you still do the same percentage of investment, but it's obviously less pound notes, so you get more in inventive with that stuff. Um, and you can't you can't really do the two. Uh you can't you can't do the middle ground because if you try and be proportional, anybody who's invested in you gets really worried that you're not spending the money fast enough. And if you try to be incremental, uh it doesn't work. So if you're trying to be a cockroach, you you have to be that proportional one, and you can't just splash loads of cash everywhere that you don't have because it creates a real problem the next month or the month after that. So it will also test you whether or not you're gonna be lifestyle or maybe more for a short-term slaves to the business in the way that it grows, and sometimes the investment piece really does compromise the lifestyle. Yeah, the cockroach piece, you can actually continue the lifestyle, but you've got to be careful to keep both in check so you don't over-lifestyle it and just uh keep a small business when when what you're about is impact on humanity that you're creating at an early age, which will go through people's lifetime, so there'll be something in there that will make you want to chase after thousands of people to use this so that you've made that dent in the reality of so many people's experiences.

Zillah Watson 33:31

That's really well put. Thank you. That's very useful, I think, for other people too, to sort of see what you're sort of weighing because it is just all the time you're just weighing up different um solutions really on these things, aren't you?

Stewart Noakes 33:44

Different different ways of going and the joy of being a founder is it's your choice. Yeah, lots of people and non-exec whoever could sit on your board and say it should be like this or it should be like that. But the reality is it can be whatever you want it to be. That's the benefit you got from saying, I'm a founder, I'm gonna step into this space, I'm gonna own it, I'm gonna live with these things up or down, and I'm gonna choose it and then make it in the way that I want it. And that could be wrong in some people's minds. In fact, it will be, but it's yeah, as long as it's not wrong in your mind, and then it's all good.

Zillah Watson 34:13

Oh, well, that's very that that's but that thank you, Stuart. That's really helpful. It is, yeah. Good to put it in perspective.

Stewart Noakes 34:21

It's an interesting journey, and like I say, I love what you you're doing. I love you both as founders. I think you're incredible in the way that you kind of drive these things through and invest in each other perpetually to keep that relationship going, which is the secret to making this truly work.

Zillah Watson 34:37

Yes, yeah, no, it's it's it's been great. But yeah, it's uh yeah, we'll we'll we'll talk to you more about that. I think the um the the cock so it's the cockroach or the what was the alternative?

Stewart Noakes 34:50

Hyper growth is is the way I talk about the one with the VC type investment or the pushing for growth stuff, which is where you you take that money on the promise of the of tomorrow and you build out against that promise versus the cockroach, which is the last startup standing, right? So you just keep investing proportionally out of the revenues that you create, so you keep everything going uh and you can keep going forever. Yeah, it just might not necessarily be the billion people that you interface with.

Zillah Watson 35:17

Yeah, no, and I think you the yeah, the danger, especially in a business like ours, you can't really go that route without being overtaken by somebody else. That that I mean in in the tech world, I think that that is a very hard thing in in a more service industry thing, you could, but it's yeah, somebody else will come along and take over the market. So you have to grow.

Stewart Noakes 35:40

Well, these are your choices. Good boardroom discussion coming up next on that one.

Katie Grayson 35:48

Perfect for the summer break to mull over the summer holiday. We start thinking about what next year looks like. Yeah, yeah, good.

Advice For First Time Founders

Stewart Noakes 35:57

Yeah. So I mean it's a great segue. Thank you so much for that, Katie. We're obviously running our startup summer uh program for first-time entrepreneurs this year, and uh we've built a lovely program for the Unidays folks that we ran earlier in the year, and we've remodeled that for an open enrollment program over the summer. Um, so for any of those people that are watching this podcast and they're first time founders trying to build their very first thing in a peer group of first-time founders, what's what's your best advice for them? How do they set their brains? What should they be thinking about and what should they be doing?

Katie Grayson 36:33

We have a we have one of our face-based apps is about success, um, which is all about uh remembering your past successes. Because if you remember the time you did it before, the likelihood is you'll do it again. Um, and I think what what you don't get when you're just in your job all day, every day, is is you you don't get the chance to really appreciate everything you know and everything you can do. And I think there's the it's it to sort of you know decide you're gonna do this, I think you have to sort of do a little bit of a stop take of of what you really are good at and what you know, and you'd probably be surprised at how much there is.

Stewart Noakes 37:13

Thank you for that. What about you, Zilla? What would you recommend to a first-time founder watching this?

Zillah Watson 37:20

Uh just don't be afraid to ask for advice. There will be somebody who's done it before that you can ask and who will quite happily sit down with you and um if you're if you um uh ask them, and and you'll need lots and lots of people to come from different perspectives to help you on different things. And so create a network of of of great people who can give you advice and and and um and you will do that through things like Canopy and and um other organizations that can support you in that way too.

Stewart Noakes 37:50

Um I hope everybody in the program gets a good chat with Pedro at least once during the the course of the time and see where that takes them and stuff, but it's sort of building on the point because I I I 100% support what you're saying in terms of getting advice from lots of different places. And the challenge though is what how do you know what to do with it, particularly when it's conflicting advice? You can go to one person and say focus on this, another person says focus on that. Well, I can't focus on two things at once, let alone three, with the third person's advice. How do you synthesize that or how have you two managed to synthesize all this different advice into your direction rather than paralysis, which is sometimes what happens?

Katie Grayson 38:27

I don't know. I think I my my experience is is is you know, yeah, things are sort of simultaneously become much more complicated, but but much more simple. The priorities seem a lot clearer day to day, I think. Um usually because uh, you know, you've you've got a you've got a to-do list and the important things are at the top. Um so I think the sort of prioritization of those those things becomes becomes easier because they are harder and more complicated. It's like you have to you have to simplify things somewhere and go with the the most important things are very much top of the list and top of mind, and the ones that will be keeping you awake at night, um in terms of advice. Uh I don't know. The the more we get, the easier it is to sift out, Silla, I think, isn't it? Yeah, and I think it's even quite yeah, there's an appreciation that that you might not someone might go give you some advice that is relevant six months down the line, and you go, ah, yeah, that's what they meant. And so there's a there's a time element to it as well.

Zillah Watson 39:35

Yeah, I mean, I think advice followed by that inner confidence that you've got to make the decision. Um, but I guess I could think in terms of asking for advice, it's a how you, you know, you're not asking people to tell you what to do, you're asking specific, it's being specific about what you're asking and what you need to know their sense of, and that then helps you filter it better. Um so ask good questions.

Stewart Noakes 40:00

Love that. Thank you very much, really appreciate it, and thank you for both for taking time out of your day to share your story. I really appreciate that. And it goes into this library of things, which helps everybody see there are so many different ways to succeed, just like you are starting from a corporate background, building this stuff as you are. Um, and it's incredible actually how many different versions of success there are within the Canopy community at different ages and you know, different stages of life, etc. It's wonderful.

Zillah Watson 40:27

Thank you. Thanks, Stuart.

Stewart Noakes 40:31

Brilliant.