Founder Friday by Canopy Community
It is a great blessing to be able to Follow Your Dreams! To be offered the moment in time where you get to build something of your vision and take it to the world.Not everyone gets that opportunity and not everyone who does so succeeds, in fact many of us fail, many times over, and we know ahead of starting out that the dangerous rocks of the journey are most likely to get us on the way.So what makes us take that leap of faith? What spurs us to back our endeavours with our time, our energy, our money and our life force? What kind of mental and emotional make up is needed not only to start, but to survive and thrive on such a voyage of discovery?In seeking the answer to that question we look to the failures, the examples of success and the many ‘works in progress’ from which we can learn and this is what brings us to the drive behind Founder Friday.More information at https://canopycommunity.substack.com/p/founderfridaywhat-is-it-all-about
Founder Friday by Canopy Community
Fear of regret drives me more than fear of failure.
Rob Kramer shares his journey as a serial entrepreneur who has built businesses across Ireland, Portugal, and Brazil, driven by his "fear of regret" and desire to live life on his own terms.
• Austrian by birth but citizen of the world, having lived in Ireland, Portugal and Brazil
• Started his first wholesale distribution company while still in college
• Currently runs "the world's sexiest bakery" according to Yahoo News
• Survived a near-fatal accident at 19 that gave him a new perspective on life
• Works successfully with his girlfriend as a business partner, challenging conventional wisdom
• Finds inspiration from unusual sources including Grand Theft Auto and Arnold Schwarzenegger
• Values complementary skills and shared mission over personal affinity in co-founder relationships
• Advocates for "owning the chaos" and starting imperfectly rather than waiting for perfect conditions
Just start now and perfect it later - there's no such thing as perfect, so if you fight for perfection, you're lost.
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All right and welcome to the latest Founder Friday episode with Rob Kramer. Rob, it's brilliant to have you here For anybody in the world that doesn't know who you are. Who is Rob Kramer and what is your current startup.
Speaker 2:Hi, stu, thanks for the invite Again. Great chatting to you Always. Great to see you too. And yeah, so who's Rob Kramer? That's myself, um. And yeah, so who's rob kramer? Um, that's, that's myself, um. So at this stage of my life I can say I'm a serial entrepreneur. Um, I created a few, uh, cool startups, some less cool, and yeah, definitely it's been a ride, uh, with lots of ups and downs. So, yeah, yeah, it's a quite an interesting journey. So I see myself as a Rob Kramer who's on the journey to well, who knows, who knows where to basically find myself.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I'm 52 and I've been doing this since I was 26, and I think you've probably done nearly as many startups as me already. It's kind of crazy how old are you now, rob, and how long have you been doing this for?
Speaker 2:um, well, at this stage I'm already 38 and um, I've been doing this since 2011, uh, so, uh, yeah, that's a chunk right.
Speaker 1:It's 14 years. It's amazing 14 years. Yeah, it is, it is, it is 14 years yeah amazing amazing all right, and so you're irish by origin, you live in portugal, you've got a brazilian girlfriend. What nationality do you regard yourself as?
Speaker 2:um, well, I'm actually Austrian Austrian, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so my mom's Austrian, my dad's Slovakian, one of my grandparents was Hungarian, so I had these three languages as my native languages. And then, yeah, since about I was 19, I lived in Ireland, in Dublin. It was actually a stopover.
Speaker 2:I didn't really plan on moving to Ireland, but, yeah, we were on the way to Canada with my girlfriend from at the time Canada and with my girlfriend from at a time, yeah, cuz, back home during those times I was, yeah, well, a bit in a troublesome. I was a troublesome kid and yeah, had too much energy and yeah, was causing a whole lot of trouble. So I literally had to change my environment and I always liked travel, probably got it off my parents mainly my mom, who, yeah, basically when she was 18, traveled across Europe in those days wasn't really common and especially not for a woman yeah, so, yeah, maybe I got it from her and the plan was to go to Canada and, yeah, stay there a couple of years and then move to the States and, yeah, ireland basically was a stopover, but went to Temple Bar.
Speaker 2:I'll never look back yeah, yeah and yeah. A couple of years later I just woke up, uh, with a huge hangover, irish hangover and yeah, I still found myself in in ireland. So, no, it's uh. Yeah, ireland was a pretty cool spot. Um, I started studying there. I went to college, to Dublin Business School. I was going to go into IT, but in my first year I met a teacher who was the economics teacher and I really liked finance, the way he presented it. So I changed. After my first year, I changed the subjects and I went into studying finance and investments because I wanted to become a hedge fund manager and just, yeah, become filthy rich, right I can see that for you.
Speaker 1:I can see hedge fund manager. I can see how that would work. Okay, I'm getting the whole billion thing working for me now, right, I can. I can see you starring in your own show.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, well, I'm not sure I was. I was expecting it to be uh like wall street, where you call a lot of people, you have fun, uh you, you meet a lot of influential people, you're negotiating closing deals, so um. But in reality, when I saw what it actually is, uh you sitting in front of a computer and watching the numbers go by, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was like, oh geez, this is not really what I want. And, yeah, it was basically. Yeah, I didn't really also want to finish my degree because while I was in college, I started my first business. That was a wholesale distribution company and it started with these mini pastries that I knew from Hungary. Actually, it was a Hungarian company and in those times, 2011, was the second largest franchise worldwide. They had four, five thousand four hundred units. I was really shocked when I saw that, because I only knew the pastries and they were in a few countries in Central Europe and well, bread and pastries in those days were pretty shite, if I yeah, pardon my French.
Speaker 1:No, that's it. We're just bringing the Irish translation translation in for now.
Speaker 2:That's all good yeah, yeah, it was, was literally like that. So, uh, that basically was an opportunity. Um, like, wow, um, why do we not have it here? Um, so I'm like, yeah, I was still studying and I'm like, all right, let's just bring it in. Um, I asked a friend who was hungarian because he could have helped me, um, with setting it up, and he didn't really go for it. So then, um, this was, uh, well, I'm still in college and I was doing a part-time job in um, in bentley systems. Um, and there was one French guy that I became friends with and he I asked him if he wants to be a business partner and he also really liked the idea. I showed him what it is and, since he's French, he knows, yeah, pastries from his home, home country. So he saw that, yes, this is indeed an opportunity.
Speaker 2:So we joined forces and, yeah, convinced the guys in Hungary to give us the license so we can distribute in Ireland. I, through the girlfriend from at the time, I knew two guys that worked in spa I believe you guys have spas in the UK too yeah, and they were going to become our first client. So I just asked the managers for a letter of intent that they are planning on to buy from us. So that helped us, uh, to get the license. Uh, because, look, this is a yeah, a huge, massive company with 4 500 outlets. So, um, like, yeah, this will be very hard to get, so I need to give them something, and I was. Yeah, that actually helped.
Speaker 2:So I also faked a few PDFs, if I may say so, to say that these will be our clients. But in the end, yeah, I wasn't just faking it, but I also had some of those to say that these will be our clients. But in the end, yeah, I wasn't just faking it, but I also had some of those and I just tried to make it work, look bigger and got the license and started importing, so had to sort out the logistics where to store because it's a food product rice frozen um had to find a warehouse. I didn't have any, any of these bands, none of that. And bear in mind I was in college and had a part-time job in in bentley, so, yeah, it was. Uh, I had to basically do all that during these and had a girlfriend as well that didn't really like the idea of me spreading myself too thinly and, yeah, basically later on also cost me the relationship.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you're looking at that as a first time founder and I'm picking it there's so many different factors in there the life balance thing, the moving to a new country, not having a big network when you get there, making new friends with all sorts of different people, starting a business in a place where you don't have deep roots so you don't have all this stuff to pull on. It's an incredible thing as an entrepreneur, this stuff to pull on and you're kind of you know, that's an incredible thing as an entrepreneur, like what, what do you think inspires you to be quite so agile and quite so adaptable? Because you've you've repeated that into portugal and into brazil and stuff like how, how?
Speaker 2:does your?
Speaker 2:mind work with this stuff um, well, honestly, I I just see an opportunity and if I like the opportunity, then I just try to pursue it. I have a huge problem right now with too many opportunities, because I'm working on several projects and I see also, when you start a project, normally a lot of startups pivot because whatever idea you have, it's not really working out or the product market isn't there, and in that case you spot other opportunities. So you pivot, and I believe this is exactly what was happening with me as well.
Speaker 1:So I see life pivots right. You're sort of pivoting through countries and friendships and languages and all sorts yeah, yeah, that too.
Speaker 2:That too like um, if, if you wanna, um, if you if, if. You go back to the countries, well, basically, if you have an idea or a company, you just check what country you like the most from personal point of view, but obviously first of all from a business perspective. So if the two match, then you just go for it. I don't really think about, yeah, I don't have a family yet, I don't have any kids, so this allows me to be flexible and with also my current relationship, my girlfriend is able to manage the companies remotely and yeah, so that allows us to travel. So this was previously very hard to do because you were tied to a location so you had to stay in one place if your business or work was in in that place. But these days it's it's getting a lot easier and also depends on the team that you have behind you. But for anyone who's an entrepreneur, yeah, the fear I believe that the way I look at it, is fear of regret that I have in because, yeah, I'm not twenty one, twenty five or eighteen anymore, because, yeah, I'm not 21, 25, or 18 anymore. So now I actually see it also from this point of view that I don't want to have regrets for not doing something Because, yeah, we can have money, I can still get a job. Everything goes bust. Yeah, I can still get a job. Well, yeah, of course it's going to get harder with the AI coming at us, but, yeah, you can still get a job, so that's the worst case scenario.
Speaker 2:So, in the meantime, if you build this agility and no fear of trying or failing, then I believe yeah, then I believe also, the older you are, the harder it gets, mainly because of responsibilities. If you start having a family, obviously you don't have the luxury of doing these things. Sometimes you do. If you arrange yourself in such a way and your family goes with it. But yeah, like my plan is, even after I don't know if I should have my family at last then I would like to travel the first few years still, if possible, live in different countries, do business in different countries and just try to stay agile in different countries and just try to stay, stay agile. And I believe this also helps the brain, because, yeah, you're in a non-stop struggle, so the brain is like a muscle and, yeah, it's not always pleasant. The entrepreneurial journeys quite lonely sometimes and very hard you have to deal with lots of stress. Everything's on fire all the time absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna come back to something about co-founders in a second and like the, the dimensions around you and your girlfriend working together at the moment. But just before I do that, a couple of random, like silly questions. What, how many passports do you have?
Speaker 2:um, well, uh, two, yeah, one id and the other one is passport. Yeah, but it's all. It's all european. I was gonna get the canadian. Uh, stay in canada for enough time to get a canadian one. Um, so I'm geographically more independent because, especially in today's world, uh, anything can happen right. So, yeah, getting either from north or the south south american continent. Another one yeah, it's probably a good option or a good plan B these days, so maybe I will look into that, getting some, getting one from overseas, and where do you do your day-to-day banking?
Speaker 1:Do you use Revolut or do you have bank accounts in different countries? You know you. You traveled so much. How do you make this work?
Speaker 2:Uh, this part. I use Revolut. I love Revolut. I've been a user since day one when they launched in Ireland and, yeah, never look back. It's the best banking app, I believe. I also use it for my businesses and they even launched in Brazil because I have business. Yes, yeah, Really really cool. Not for business, they haven't done that yet, but you can have a personal account on Revolut in Brazil, so that's fairly cool. And in Portugal, I got to use the Portuguese banks because you can. Unfortunately because you can only pay tax social security through a Portuguese bank account. So otherwise, I do not recommend Portuguese banks.
Speaker 1:Let's not get you into any trouble. On this podcast, we're all good, we're all good, all right. So, co-founders, you're currently a co-founder with your girlfriend in this company. What is your superpower? What is her superpower? How do you make this stuff work?
Speaker 2:All righty. So, yeah, one of the businesses, I'm back in bakery with one bakery that started as a hobby, a side project, but became really massive just over a week since launch. So, any that I saw. It will allow me to travel to multiple places and set up there places like Brazil, probably, spain, italy, these were on the list so went in a full time on that and the girlfriend, um, became my business partner because, um, in portugal, uh, when I launched this business, it's called la putaria, it's actually the world's sexiest bakery, uh, according to yahoo, according to yahoo news, the little plug in there. So, yeah, I got invited into Portuguese TV. It was a family TV as well. The morning show was called M Familia TV from TVI. It's a channel here.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I asked her if she would come with me because I don't speak any portuguese. Well, my portuguese was very basic, very basic, um, so she came with me and, yeah, later on became my business partner because we were gonna I was gonna expand into into brazil, I was going to expand into Brazil and I knew her work ethic. So, yeah, I asked her if she would come on board and she did, and it was a pretty good decision. I was very scared because, yeah, you don't open a business or start a business with a girlfriend. Normally it's the entry point into hell. In Europe we see it this way but honestly it's not that uncommon. When I moved to Brazil unwillingly also, that happened by accident because I was only going to spend more than half months there, but, yeah, in the end it became one and a half years. Um, I saw in brazil it's so common compared to europe not sure about the us that couples are in business together like this.
Speaker 2:This was astonishing. Astonishing because normally it will obviously influence the relationship, and sometimes in a positive way, but it brings a lot of negatives with it. Like, yeah, you basically, of course, see the person every single day in work and then also out of work. Then the lines between private and business life get blurred. So, uh, brings lots of challenges, but my girlfriend is very easygoing, uh, very easy to deal with, uh, she's not a headwrecker. So, um, and that was also the same in business.
Speaker 2:So I knew her from my private life and actually didn't. Of course we had a few disagreements or a few challenging discussions, but overall 90%, which is a huge percentage, it was pretty all right, I got to say, and she's also very willing to to learn. Um, so she was very open to learn and hearing the advice not just, yeah, listening to it, but actually hearing it. So, um, this helped us to overcome a lot of the friction and it was was really, really cool and, yeah, despite spending so much time together, it didn't actually um kill our relationship and we've been doing it now together for three years, uh, in this business. So, yeah, I believe out of I got a few co-founders and, yeah, she, she became one of the best um, yeah, it does sound like one of the best, uh co-founder relationships I've come across.
Speaker 1:Actually, it's amazing and I would say, in the 10 companies I've done, I've been a good, bad and indifferent co-founder at times and and had good, bad and indifferent co-founders, and the magic is always when you're being a good co-founder with another good co-founder and you, you find that success or you compensate for each other in a way and over time that enables you both to thrive, which I think is a very special recipe that only really grown-ups can do. Right, I had to be taught how to do it, so it's uh, yeah, some of you doing amazing. Well done.
Speaker 2:Also finding a co-founder is. I'm not sure how you found yours. How was your first co-founder?
Speaker 1:We'd worked together before and when I started the company. He was one of the first in fact, the very first person I called to come actually to hire him. And then he, very quickly, just a few weeks into the things that we were doing together, he called me up on a Saturday morning and said no, I want to build this with you too. I feel very excited about doing this. And then we divided the company up and built everything together from there.
Speaker 1:But different co-founders are found in different ways, but usually I have known them for a while. We've known each other for a while before we decide to do a business thing, and I've become increasingly experienced why this might not be the right word about asking certain questions before we begin and being very open and transparent about stuff, including, like, how you are as people, right? So I think it's not just about you have a shared purpose, it's also how do you make your dynamic fit together as you go forward as co-founders. And it's one of the most uh, you know I use the word advisedly, but it's one of the most intimate relationships that you'll have, because you are going to see some of the worst qualities of each other during business, right?
Speaker 1:I mean you talked before when we were chatting about your journey in brazil with the bakery and you know, going through lawsuits and government regulation and being shut down and what sort of stuff that doesn't necessarily bring the best in people. You know the best qualities. That amount of pressure can really, uh, expose some flaws and most people, whether they're really good people. When you put them under that sort of pressure they actually revert to the opposite of themselves, right, that pressure pushes them into or be a very talkative person that becomes very introverted, or what would be a very easygoing person suddenly becomes very controlling. You know that kind of pressure can change people true, true, yes, um, it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely their personality match. Uh, many times, yeah, and these days I I realized that I don't really have to like the person um too much, but if we're on the same mission and we complement one another, then that's actually worth more than just if you like the person and the person is not really contributing to the business. So, if you find the right balance I believe it's super hard, it's near to impossible. I had my bad choices in this as well. Like I mentioned, my very first business partner. I didn't know him that well, I didn't know him that well. We were colleagues and somewhat friends. Like when you go out once, twice a month, okay, that's basically it. It didn't work out too well because he wasn, despite us being in the same city and also in the same job, um, yeah, so it didn't work out. And also the second time it didn't really work out, worked out for some time.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, um, after some time, you see the person is, yeah, um has different plans from yours and sometimes, yeah, they also go behind your back. So you, you never really know um until you try. And then you have to deal with it and as you get more experienced, you meet more people, uh, you will start seeing a pattern. So, yeah, um, I believe you do. You see now someone and boom, within 30 seconds, if not less, you can tell what kind of person they are. Or, yeah, where are they going to bring it in terms of business? Or yeah, you can. Basically, you have these little boxes and you know where to put bits and pieces of of that person and you build a character, you build a persona of that someone that you met. So, yeah, now it's definitely a lot easier, although I'm still making sometimes mistakes. But, yeah, I believe actions of the person are always something you should pay attention to instead of what they say. It's not you as I say, do as I do, basically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. I mean, some of the heuristics I use is similar to you. You used the word contribution right.
Speaker 1:So I'm always looking for the one plus one equals five rather than one plus one equals one and a half. You know, I'm looking for that force multiplier and I've learned over time because I, you know, I'm an only child and I've got all this other randomness going along because of that. But I've learned over time to recognize people's superpowers and respect that when those superpowers are something I don't have, actually it's worth 10x something I already do have. So you know, it's kind of giving that respect and that hat tip to okay, you're doing that thing I don't know how to do. You're doing this thing I know how to do really badly, but that thing you're doing that I don't know how to do. That's amazing. So, but it took me a few co-founders to get that mindset. It's like few co-founders to get that mindset. It's like actually this is a blend, right? Not, I can do this thing really well and you can't keep up. It's like this thing you can do I don't know how to do that. I haven't.
Speaker 1:You know one of my co-founders. She's amazing, she speaks like five languages and she's incredibly pleasant with people and she's got this intensity in this way of working which I I can't do that with people in the way that she does that and that makes her really special in her role. But it also gives me a freedom in my role to not have to do that, right, so I might do that half as well as her, but now I don't have to do it at all because she does it really well over there. It's amazing, right, but it took me a long time to learn that. So let me ask you I just I just gave a little seed about me there in terms of the only child thing really colors me up, in terms of why I'm an entrepreneur in the first place but what makes rob, rob, what makes you so restless, what makes you so? I mean, you mentioned like disruptive before right with your moods, but what makes you so restless, adaptable, agile, what is it? What's the factor?
Speaker 2:well, what's the factor? Um like, like I mentioned before, one of one of those is the fear of regret. Uh, that's, that's gonna be always amazing right in here is it.
Speaker 2:That's right in here. You got that fear of regret. Yes, yeah, I don't want to regret, uh, of not doing or not trying. Uh, those things I I don't really plan many of those the opportunities. They just come and go. Many times you write them down but you never go back to those. I have one zillion notes that I will probably never look at ever again.
Speaker 2:But as a kid I played Grand Theft Auto. Gta was my favorite game and that was basically something that was very close to life in those days and especially, yeah, I was, I was huge into video games, I was a massive nerd and, yeah, basically I saw my life as something like that. I just didn't want to be yeah, sorry, mom and dad, I didn't want to end up basically being like them and like everybody else, to be basically a 9-to-5 person. It just felt like prison. And from GTA I saw you can do of course, the GTA is a lot of illegal stuff yeah, like you can have a different life.
Speaker 2:We didn't really have that many entrepreneurs to look up to when I was growing up, even in in Dublin, when we, when, when I was starting my first startup, people were weirded out how young we were because we also looked a lot younger than than our age. So they were really weirded out, um, because in wholesale distribution you don't see, uh, people like this. They 20 year olds, right? Yeah, they probably. Yeah, they always thought we were some junior employee, um, who the company sent to sell.
Speaker 2:And then when we said we actually the owners because my second business partner was from the same college as I was and it was actually even a three or something like that years younger so was like, yeah, was a very funny combo when we went to. Very funny combo when we went to supermarkets and hotels to start to try sell our product and also wholesale distributors. So, um, I believe that, yeah, the video game definitely, definitely skewed my view of life and I was also kind of marked by a huge accident that I had, um, where I was five days in coma and then three months in a rehab, in a rehabilitation center and then, um, yeah, um, three months still on crutches, um, walking around with those so what age?
Speaker 2:you know that happened uh, yeah, I was 19 in those days. Yeah, it was a fast and furious lifestyle. So, yeah, and the doctors at that time, they were telling my mom I have a 5% chance to survive. So that was very low. They were basically preparing her for the worst. And, yeah, so the recovery.
Speaker 2:Also, the doctors, they were telling me that I'll be limping because my pelvis was broken in three halves, half of my body was basically broken. And, yeah, they were telling me very bad news, bad things, and I just didn't believe them because I was like, yeah, there's no way. Like you're talking, basically I will do this. And obviously I beat them. And when I went back a year later into the hospital to meet the surgeons that basically saved me, yeah, they were all really surprised how well I look. They were impressed. So I'm like, yeah, here you go in your face. And then they also apologized that they basically told me those bad news, so they don't bring my hopes up. And then disappointed, so, yeah, that's basically why, why they were trying to bring me down. I still don't agree with their, uh, how they did it, but yeah, um, that's uh, that's another story and it's in the past as well, and also, um, one huge example for me was Arnie Arnold Schwarzenegger, who is still the largest Austrian celebrity. Yeah, austrian expert yeah.
Speaker 1:The only reason he's not president, right yeah?
Speaker 2:So I was working out and I got into bodybuilding and tried to get to a competition in California called Musclemania, which is a natural bodybuilding, because I was going to go compete in the natural bodybuilding section because you have the regular one that Arnie and everybody else did, and then I'm not sure when that started, but they started also the natural bodybuilding competitions. So my plan was to get massive, get and get to the states, get to cali, uh, win a competition and then move there and become, uh, basically, yeah, working the health industry there for a while and then become an entrepreneur. So, basically, do, do as arnie did. So that was also one of, yeah, uh, that was one of the reasons why, uh, why I became an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:So it was the gta stuff, uh, video games and and arnie um okay, well, shout out to arnie and shout out to dundee, because grand theft auto is the best exports ever come out of dundee, apart from dundee cake.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, super cool, I'm gonna try that one. I gotta try all right.
Speaker 1:So it's been. It's been a treat to chat with you today. Thank you so much for what you have done and shared today, because, for first time founders watching this, you are one of those examples of the curious person that is an entrepreneur. You know the way you're agile, the way you're able to move and flow and do different things in situations that a lot of people would say no, I can't do it. I just moved to that country. There's no way I can start a business. You know, I don't speak that language. There's no way I can actually set up a business there and go through all this stuff like it's amazing what you do and I want to thank you for being such a citizen in the community and sharing your story and helping others like you do. So thank you for that. And what's your best advice? Probably let's finish with what's your best advice for a first-time founder watching this, somebody who's thinking about being an entrepreneur but maybe is just just shy of making that step. What would you, what would you say to them?
Speaker 2:um, well, yeah, uh, thanks, thanks for the invite here again and yeah, I really enjoyed our talk, like always. And yeah, the advice for the first time founders is yeah, I know you might be afraid of the downside you can mitigate risk by still keep your job and launch the company. Work on the company on your weekends, after work and yeah. So this way you basically have nothing really to lose. But the most important thing is just start. Start now and you can perfect it later. There is no such a thing as perfect, so if you fight for perfection, you're lost. So just do it and own the chaos. Uh, basically, so that's, um, that's that's how I operate. Um, so, yeah, you can start whatever you want. It doesn't have to be in your profession. Just do it and you will learn everything through the business as you do, because you're practicing. What you're preaching or what you're studying, you put into practice, and that way it will work out, for the better or for the worse, you will see at the end.
Speaker 1:I love that phraseology from you. I've heard you use it a couple of times before only chaos. Thank you for that. That's a real gift to the community. Appreciate it all right.
Speaker 2:Thanks, rob yes, thanks to have a one thanks.
